Industry leaders dive deep into Point of Care (POC) measurement methodologies and standardization. Explore the critical challenges of measurement consistency, data integration, and establishing standardization for POC analytics. This collaborative dialogue between agency, media, and measurement experts offers practical strategies to improve POC measurement and guide budget allocation within broader marketing frameworks.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 0:09 Good morning. Come on, come on, come on. You can do better than that. Good morning.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 0:16 So to Nicole’s point, we had a great session, Candid Conversations, about six to seven weeks ago. And we thought, you know, if we’re really going to commit to measurement as a theme that we want to progress on as an industry, we wanted to start with measurement today at Summit, sort of drive home the point that it matters and that we want to make progress. So I’m going to let our incredible panelists introduce themselves and then we’ll dive in on some of the themes that we shared at Candid and how we’re going to progress forward. So, Megan Sarley, I’ll start with you.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 0:47 Good morning, everyone. I’m Meghan Sarli, I lead our insights and enablement team at Patient Point, which is our measurement arm. Prior to PatientPoint I worked at IQVIA and prior to IQVIA, I worked at Merck. So I bring to this panel every area of support for point of care except for agency side. And luckily we have Sarah here. So go ahead, Joy.
Joy Joseph ▷ 1:07 Yes, thanks, Megan. Hi, I’m Joy Joseph. I head up analytics and measurement at MedFuse and before that I was on the agency side for five years, IPG and Group M, prior to that doing analytics and measurement. Glad to be here.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 1:23 Hey everyone, I’m Joshua Bazile. I’m a director of strategy on our Viva crossx. So particularly focused on the measurement product measuring all DTC and HCP non personal campaigns. Happy to be here.
Kit Burkus ▷ 1:35 Hi everyone, I’m Kit Burkus. I am at iqvia Digital and I lead our measurement innovation, formerly PHM with Sarah.
Sarah Bast ▷ 1:44 Yes. Hi everyone. I’m Sarah Bast from Publicis Health Media. I oversee our investment team, so all channels. But if you know me, I have a passion for point of care and was happy to kind of join POCMA close to when Nicole did to kind of really, you know, advance everything we’re doing for the industry.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 2:10 Awesome. And I think, Kit, I’m going to start with you because Kit was on our panel in January. Kick us off. What makes Point of Care so challenging to measurement?
Kit Burkus ▷ 2:23 Yeah, I think it’s the inconsistency around measurement.
Kit Burkus ▷ 2:26 Really. Measurement is so critical because it’s how you justify what you’re doing that these campaigns are making a real difference and we know that they are. But some of the inconsistency that you’re saying seeing around measurement with Point of care isn’t necessarily a challenge with other channels and that’s that inconsistency that we’re looking to really solve for today and going forward, which, you know, if you look at linear tv, you look at digital, they know audience quality, they know Net impact. They’ve been doing it for a while. All of our clients expect that level of information, the point of care.
Kit Burkus ▷ 3:03 There’s so many options you have. Is this an HCP or a consumer campaign that you’re measuring? What metrics are you using? Trx, nbrx, nrx? How are you handling affiliations data?
Kit Burkus ▷ 3:17 Should you have an roi? Should you do Net Impact? So with all of these challenges, I think the industry hasn’t really seen a cohesive story and it’s been hard to understand what, what people are getting when you see a 40 to 1 or 50 to 1 ROI and how you contextualize that with all of the other channels that you’re measuring as well.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 3:38 Awesome. Thank you.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 3:39 And Megan, I was going to ask you sort of from that perspective too. Kit was referring to sort of the numbers of a 40 to 1, a 50 to 1. I know that you have some thoughts on this as well in terms of like what does better look like or what’s a more believable or realistic goal for us as a vendor community.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 3:56 Yeah, I love to answer this question. I’m going to ask for audience participation.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 4:00 I’m going to be that annoying presenter that’s like, come on. So everyone in the room, my question for you is, please raise your hand if you look at ROI as a measurement of point of care. Any ROI at all, do you look at it? Do you measure it? Okay, next, please raise your hand if you look at Net Impact or any type of script lift, anything like that.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 4:24 Okay. Roughly even. Both are important. However, I would challenge that any type of Net Impact lift is more important because it’s in a test and control environment. You are accounting for two like practices or two like patients.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 4:41 And that is why it is likely more important. Furthermore, I would guess that a lot of clients in here, a lot of you pharma folks, might not even be allowed to measure roi, especially if you’re on an unbranded campaign, if you’re measuring something that does not have a script attached to it. A lot of our clients are not permitted to measure roi. So Net impact is extremely important. And I would challenge more important potentially than roi because you’re accounting for both to test and control in a controlled environment.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 5:08 Gotcha. And so kind of keeping with that theme of setting up a solid control that everybody agrees on, we talked a little bit about this collaboration between our agency partners, our client partners, our vendor partners, and Then also our objective third parties that can bring in all kinds of great data to help us. But now I want to kind of ask Sarah, like that sounds really good, but I remembered when I heard that that sounds like a lot to collaborate on. So from your perspective, busy planning season, what are you either asking of us as a community or what does this change or how can we help make this process collaborative while still being realistic to what it requires?
Sarah Bast ▷ 5:52 Yeah, so you said it.
Sarah Bast ▷ 5:54 Collaboration is key amongst all those different entities that you just listed out. But also internally at the agency, collaboration is really key, starting with our channel mix. A lot of the tools out there that our strategy planning teams use for channel mix reach and frequency don’t necessarily account for point of care. So we really need to lean on marketplace intelligence to figure out initially what that right channel mix is. That could be gathering case studies or use cases from your agency team, from your client partners and even your partner partner community out here.
Sarah Bast ▷ 6:38 They have a lot of use cases that we can look at in order to inform how much we should be spending in the point of care. I think the other thing within the channel mix that you need to really think about is what setting within the point of care is really important to your brand. Take a vaccine for example. You know, we’re really going to lean heavily on pharmacy there. So we do need to think about those different settings, settings with our strategy teams.
Sarah Bast ▷ 7:07 When we’re thinking about that channel mix. I think the other thing that we need to think about is the role of point of care and what those KPIs are and make sure that those KPIs are aligning with that role and we are set up for success at the beginning. Are we looking at awareness, are we looking at new patient starts, so on and so forth. And then I also think for planning needs, we need to get into all of the targeting criteria. So there’s a lot of work that our manufacturers are doing around our HCP target list, around the pharmacy locations that are important to us based on where vaccines are being stocked, and then also patient criteria.
Sarah Bast ▷ 7:55 When you’re looking at, you know, EHR within point of care, what, what ICD10 codes, all of that is really important and we need to gather that from our manufacturers and lean on our partners that have experience in this area as well.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 8:11 I love what you were just saying too, because the examples of like you started to go into the KPIs and when we balance that on test versus control script lift, and then some of these other areas of say vaccines and different Disease states. Now I’m going to look kind of to our objective measurement party panelists. Josh, let’s start with you. We talk about KPIs.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 8:33 What’s a good place or time to kind of bring in the KPI discussion from your perspective and maybe even brainstorm a bit on what are those KPIs that we want to focus on?
Joshua Bazile ▷ 8:46 Yeah, I think it’s not a stretch to say that the latest it should be is tactical because that’s when you’re really planning to Megan, to your point of is it a branded campaign, is it an unbranded campaign? Having that understanding of the strategy of what is this campaign trying to do is really how we want to tailor our KPIs to the campaign. To your point, when we think about scriptlift, we’re connecting to longitudinal patient prescription and claims data. So there’s a lot of different things that we can look at there.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 9:13 Right. It can be things not necessarily like ROI or script lift. We can look at other things like is it driving new diagnosis, new screening for certain conditions, especially as we think about rare disease and things like that. There’s lots of other ways that we can help quantify success for the campaign because ultimately for us and for the marketers in the room, we want to be able to provide you with that third party objective POV and really help you justify, defend and expand your budgets in the channel. So part of it’s that I think and understanding at that time frame what are the goals of the campaign tying specifically outcomes that we can see in the prescription and claims data.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 9:49 And I love the point that you mentioned, Megan too of Script lift is very important, particularly for those campaigns where new patient starts and ROI isn’t the end goal. But I do think there is a place for both. And when I think about what I see in the industry across other channels for digital and tv, there is this sort of unification in using multiple analytics tools kind of in your toolkit. One of them is certainly market mix, which I know we’ll talk a little bit about here. The other is kind of what we would call like matchback or directly observe script lift analytics.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 10:23 And really it’s about using kind of the right use case for each of those analytics tools. And I think for us on the script lift side it’s certainly about it’s a bottoms up kind of approach where we’re starting from either individual HCP level offices and patient level data that enables more granularity to get into questions like okay, which tactic within that POC kind of campaign is actually more effective. Is it the waiting room tv? Is it the digital wallboard? That’s what we want to enable.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 10:49 But then market mix is still really good for kind of larger overall, like budget allocations and kind of. Sarah, to your point, on what’s the right kind of channel allocation and mix and spend, that’s something that we think that can be really good for too.
Kit Burkus ▷ 11:01 Yeah. And I agree that planning early is so critical and thinking of point of care as a cohesive channel. I know there are so many different tactics, and that’s one of the challenges that we’re going to talk about.
Kit Burkus ▷ 11:13 But when you look at some of the channels that have established measurement best practices, they are being measured. All of the vendors are being measured cohesively. And with point of care, it’s difficult if you have different vendors, no one sharing each other’s target lists and that sort of thing. So to have independent measurement that can look at each of these vendors, combine that data, use it for mixed modeling, for instance, or use it to report back to the agency. And how you optimize, I think just those KPIs in the beginning are critical to make sure that you’re getting in front of the right people, that you have the right unique reach, that you’re not accidentally reaching the same doctors with branded and unbranded messaging in the same place.
Kit Burkus ▷ 11:56 And so I think just combining that data across. Across vendors from the beginning to help with your planning process and just aligning on what those KPIs are so that manufacturer can use those KPIs as well as the agency.
Sarah Bast ▷ 12:11 Yeah. From a planning perspective, Kit kind of hit on something that’s really important is especially when we’re looking at either pharmacy locations or in office advertising, we really do need to understand what our total kind of media exposure is within a single office one because of branded and unbranded and cannot be combined. We also need to know what our salesforce is doing, but also from a measurement perspective.
Sarah Bast ▷ 12:45 So we definitely lean very heavily on our partners sending us back flagged files. So that way we can then roll it up between all of our media partners here in the audience and that.
Joy Joseph ▷ 13:01 Data that comes back. That’s vital because Kit, you talked about inconsistency in measurement. And if you start looking at where that inconsistency is coming.
Joy Joseph ▷ 13:10 So if you look at test sources, control and mmm, big elephant in the room, two big sources of that discrepancy, what goes into the MMM is typically just an indicator where the POC was present in an office or not. And I have offices that are group practices, offices that are solo practices and offices that are in between. And I’m going to treat all of them equally in that model, which is not fair because you have patient volumes that are going to be so much higher in that group practices. So when you get that data back, you need to start putting a thinking hat from an analytics strategy perspective. Look at where did you execute.
Joy Joseph ▷ 13:46 Make sure your MMM partner is actually reflecting that in the data. That’s where using an impressions like metric which we’ve been testing out is going to be critical. So instead of using just POC was there. POC is not there. Try to get kind of a foot traffic metric in there.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 14:02 Joy, I have to add on here. Anyone who knows me knows that marketing mix models to me are so challenging in point of care. And I say it all the time and I’m going to say it here. Anyone who runs MMMs let me know by jumping up and down that I’m incorrect here. Square peg, round hole, point of care and MMMs to me across the board just do not fit.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 14:25 And here is why I have and I work for patient points. Let me give you this example and then I’ll speak to my former client Frija. Let’s pretend over here. You’re in my waiting room today, right? You are patients in my waiting room.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 14:39 Fantastic. Please go on brand over here. You’re checking in using a check in tool via text message or whatever and you’re getting a one to one message. How can I combine them in the same model? One to many, one to one.
Kit Burkus ▷ 14:53 It’s hard.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 14:54 And marketing mix models are an impression based model and point of care for all of you vendors in the room. Point of care typically is like this throughout a time period. And anyone who knows marketing mix modeling knows that you measure success by ebbs and flows in marketing mix modeling. Square peg, round hole.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 15:14 If anyone can help me figure that out, please come find me after because it’s been really hard and I cannot for the life of me figure out how point of care does amazing for one pharma company and terrible for another. It’s really hard to understand and so I just had to say it. I’ll get off my soapbox now. But it’s like stay on it. It’s so it’s really challenging in the point of care space and we try to partner with our pharmaceutical companies.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 15:40 Understanding that you’re being directed frequently by your analytics team to say here is how you should spend and so we want to be a part of that game.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 15:48 We know that it’s important, but it’s also really hard at times to be as again, square peg, round hole to give you the right data can be difficult at times and inconsistent from vendor to vendor. I just had to say that I feel compelled.
Joy Joseph ▷ 16:04 I love that point, the square peg, round hole analogy.
Joy Joseph ▷ 16:08 But I also have kind of a soft corner for MMM, having done it for 25 years. It was my first job out of grad school. So I think I’m feeling very compelled to dip in mm.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 16:19 This is two years ago, Joel.
Joy Joseph ▷ 16:23 Oh, my goodness. So the thing with MMM is it’s garbage in, garbage out. Right. So essentially an MMM is only as good as the KPIs that you put in the model. The data that goes in the model and you hit it on the head.
Joy Joseph ▷ 16:39 You have POC that’s on continuously. Right. And if you’re just going to use presence of POC as an input, it’s going to kill your mmm. It’s going to treat apples and oranges the same. Right.
Joy Joseph ▷ 16:51 And it’s not going to work. And what’s needed here is, and this is akin to where television was maybe like 20, 30 years back, where before GRPs, actually, it’s longer than that. Before GRPs, people just throw TV shows.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 17:03 Before we were alive.
Joy Joseph ▷ 17:04 Yeah, exactly.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 17:05 Before we were alive.
Joy Joseph ▷ 17:05 Yeah. TV was on, TV was not on, and nothing’s working. We are the same spot here. With PoC, you have data that’s telling you that patient volume was up or down in a given week.
Joy Joseph ▷ 17:18 That’s taking your flat POC and it’s saying that they’re not flat, because while the POCs were on in two offices, patient volumes were different. Therefore, my impressions and my impact that I’m driving is going to be very different in those models. So I think it’s. We are at that point where MMM can get better. I think we need to help educate the MMM partners on what better data to get in there.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 17:43 I think I love what you’re saying too, because as we’re talking about garbage in, garbage out, I think that also just tees up another area that. Sarah, you’ve mentioned many times that this is not just like other channels like tv. And then you go deeper into, like, there’s so many tactics represented in this room and they each have different inputs. So I just wanted to give you that kind of opportunity to sort of remind us all that, like, while we may be thinking of the things that we represent in our individual seats, from your perspective, hearing you is really beneficial to be like, oh, yeah. Now I get all of the things that have to be ingested.
Sarah Bast ▷ 18:21 Yeah. So I think there’s two things. We talk about point of care as a channel. Right. But when you look at point of care, there’s many different settings.
Sarah Bast ▷ 18:32 You know, you’re in the brick and mortar. You could have telehealth, you could be at the pharmacy, so on and so forth. Then within there, there’s tactics that are different channels. You know, we could have a digital wallboard, we could have a print wallboard, we could have the mobile check in, we can have the back office wallboard as well as an ehr. So there’s also different audiences.
Sarah Bast ▷ 18:58 With Kit, you hit on this. We’re trying to reach our patients, we’re trying to reach our caregivers, we’re trying to reach health care professionals. Point of care can do a lot. Right. So we really need to think about that and how that gets ingested into M and M.
Sarah Bast ▷ 19:14 Not my job. That is why we have these experts here. But also what we’re trying to do at POCMA on the standards committee is really try to get our point of care media partners to come together. We need your opinions and we need to figure out, like, how are we defining an impression? Are we defining it by a guaranteed impression?
Sarah Bast ▷ 19:40 Are we defining it by the true potential of eyeballs? Within that waiting room, we really need to come together to do some definitions to help our clients, help our agencies, and ultimately help our partners. I think in this room we all believe in point of care, but in some cases, I have a client that has been investing in point of care years and years and years, and now their internal M and M and M is not really kind of coming through and showing the value of point of care.
Joanne Biscardi 20:15 That’s a great point. And actually it’s a perfect opportunity to kind of shift to the friction where we may see two truths.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 20:24 Right. So let’s imagine a world where we’ve got a story that says, you know, the test versus control. Everybody feels good about that methodology, but that tells one story. And then MMMN says something different. So, Joy, I’m going to kind of get this over to you because thankfully, Joy has seen ways to help point of care be more accurately measured based on some adjustments in the input for mmm, not necessarily a wholesale departure from it.
Joy Joseph ▷ 20:55 Yeah, let’s tackle the elephant in the room. So there’s. So we did this work maybe like two years back where we compared benchmark ROIS coming out of MMM and what the implied lift was. And we looked at lift studies that were driven by test versus control. And we saw roughly a 3x difference between average lifts on the lift measurement side, which are higher at 3x of the implied lift coming out of MMM.
Joy Joseph ▷ 21:21 And that’s a huge disconnect. It creates a lot of credibility issues when you have an independent partner measuring the MMM and then comparing it to test versus control. Now who’s right here? And one of the things that we found out was there were discrepancies in how AMMS executed and especially the quality of inputs that’s going in into the mmm. Mmms were run either at the market level, even when they’re running it at the HCP level.
Joy Joseph ▷ 21:50 They had just this level indicator. That’s essentially what Megan, you were saying. It’s like a level input. There’s no variations. MMM thrives on variation of the data.
Joy Joseph ▷ 21:59 Without variation it cannot do anything. And test source control, on the other hand, is where MM is a wide angle view where it’s looking across all the channels and does a good job of trying to capture all these moving parts with variation. Test to control is too close to the campaign and it’s looking at that one specific campaign. And when we try to extrapolate and you need to have some precautions in there. But the biggest improvement that we saw was when using an impressions metric.
Joy Joseph ▷ 22:27 Right? So as I was explaining earlier, where you are able to capture patient volume coming into these offices, that as an input becomes the equivalent of a grp, if you will, that goes into the MMM models. And what we saw in There was roughly 20 to 30% higher contributions in MMM when using an impressions metric compared to this level indicator metric in the model. So definitely there’s some truth that MMM’s understating the contributions lifts on the test resource control side too, there’s some inflation because of the way we are selecting control groups. And this is where you need to make sure you are using rights suppression rules.
Joy Joseph ▷ 23:09 If you have a control group that was previously exposed to the campaign, leave them out of the control group. So there’s some best practices that need to be applied there. Between the two of them, where test control might be a little too high and MMM might be a little too low, there’s a middle ground where these models start educating each other and we kind of get to from the two truths to somewhere kind of adjacent truths, I think is where we’re trying to get to.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 23:33 I just want to again repeat the statement that I heard you say. I think everybody just heard the same statement, but with some of these modifications and that impression model and some of the best practices that we can distribute around 20 to 30% improvement of point of care being able to be evident in result.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 23:52 Did I say that?
Joy Joseph ▷ 23:53 Yes, absolutely.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 23:54 20 to 30%. Just everybody in case everybody. That’s fantastic because I know this has been a big challenge area for us as an industry with the MMMs.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 24:05 Okay. So we’re going to kind of keep as we’re shifting into kind of almost the Q and A portion of this. I hope we’re everybody’s got their hands ready for questions. We’ll be doing that in a minute. I did want to also just again come back to.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 24:20 You’re referencing how we as an industry provide better input so that we’re getting better data in so that we don’t have the garbage in, garbage out. Sarah, you also just kind of called on us as an industry to say let’s standardize as best we can as an organization and association. I want to give opportunity as well to Kit and Josh and Megan also for some additional ideas on this theme of our collaboration especially planning season will be upon us soon enough. You know, what do we each feel is really, really critical before we start turning over to Q and A parts?
Kit Burkus ▷ 24:53 So yeah, I mean for me it goes back to that standardization piece and how do we get these mixed models when you have the appropriate inputs, how do you start to get those inputs early and often to feed the model?
Kit Burkus ▷ 25:07 And then also let’s compare to see how testing control can become closer to that mixed model. I think there’s a lot of ways that you can become more stringent with your testing control for point of care. I think we’ve made a lot of strides with that in recent years because again we had those 40, 50, 60 to one ROIs. So we started controlling on making sure that patients were also in a doctor’s office, that doctors were writing similar amounts of particular product before you had the campaign. So you’re not over indexing with that testing control piece, essentially rendering it useless.
Kit Burkus ▷ 25:44 So for me, I think it’s really exciting to think through how we can take some of these early metrics, have testing control that you would get more often than a mixed model and in a way that’s reliable that’s then pulled through with that modeling. And I think that’s part of that standardization piece that we’re really looking to pull through from this.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 26:06 I think I would agree to your point Joy on like the truth is certainly somewhere in the middle and I think if you think about even what you just said in terms of pulling in Some type of impression metric inputting into the mmm. That’s really sort of the same level of input that we’re getting in the test versus control, right? Because we’re taking NPI lists and pulling in the patients that are seeing those physicians during the time at the point of campaign was running.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 26:28 So when you think about it, we’re getting to a similar level of input at that point. But I do agree with your point too, Kit, that we can get better about kind of the test versus control to really think about what is that incrementality or what’s that causal inference. We’re trying to say that this was driven because of the point of care ad part of that and when we think about it at Viva Cross Ex too is when we think about personal promotion too, right? Like were there field reps in in that office promoting to that physician where point of care was also running? That’s a data set that we have access to controlling on things like that.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 26:59 All the other normal things that we’ve talked about. But I think standardization on that piece I think also will improve kind of the test versus control piece, but also like on the inputs, right. So things like Megan, to your point, right, like some platforms are one to one at the patient level, some are kind of one to many at the MPI level. So how can we get to something that can be consistent across both that we can leverage in both analytical approaches?
Meghan Sarli ▷ 27:23 Totally agree.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 27:24 If there were a couple of takeaways that I would have from this first session. The first one is I think you’ve heard from all of us that test and control we figured out it’s actually not hard. The key is aligning pharma client, agency, publisher, vendor and measurement partner on the KPIs ahead of time. That kickoff call is critical.
Sarah Bast ▷ 27:48 Analytics team at.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 27:49 Thank you.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 27:50 Love it.
Sarah Bast ▷ 27:50 Any brand marketers in here, get your analytics team in that call.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 27:54 Thank you. Totally spot on.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 27:56 That’s the first thing test and control we’ve got. The part we’re working on are those questions that all of you have asked, which is what are the benchmarks? Because right now point of care is one large channel and it’s really hard to benchmark again, waiting room one to one. There’s a lot going on there. So the Point of Care Marketing association is working with measurement partners to figure out how to do that to help you.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 28:20 And the last thing is we understand that marketing mix models are a requirement for most of our clients. However, we also need some assistance from all the other parties to ensure it’s not garbage in, garbage out. So standardization again, going back to the kickoff call would be immensely helpful.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 28:37 Awesome, thank you again. And actually we did.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 28:40 I’m going to turn it over to Sarah to share some of our key takeaways so that please take us away.
Sarah Bast ▷ 28:47 The other slide. There we go.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 28:48 Thank you. Yeah.
Sarah Bast ▷ 28:49 So during our pre call we wanted to make sure that there were some key takeaways for everyone in the room. And this really is about partnering with our pharma clients, with our media partners, with our agencies which are with our third party measurement and really kind of aligning during that planning or RFP stage. So obviously, you know, we need that data and aligning on that data to inform our targeting. That could be an HCP target list, which we talk about a lot. But also patient criteria, pharmacy location data, things along those lines.
Sarah Bast ▷ 29:29 Those use cases are really important for our channel mix and also getting potentially a new client on board with the point of care channel and aligning on kind of what our approach is to measurement and optimization and what that cadence could look like. What else do we have here? Aligning on branded and unbranded. And we need to understand what the salesforce is doing as well because it’s critical that we don’t have any compliance violations with mixing branded and unbranded. And then finally our standardized measurement approach.
Sarah Bast ▷ 30:08 And please, please make sure you know that we have the right people in the room from the client side, from the pharma side. That’s really important.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 30:18 Awesome.
Kit Burkus ▷ 30:19 And Kip, I see people taking pictures. So these are.
Sarah Bast ▷ 30:23 I forgot to take the pictures.
Kit Burkus ▷ 30:25 Yes, take the pictures. So this is just our final slide on how we see the future of point of care measurement. First, building an analytics repository. We’ve talked a lot about measurement and KPIs.
Kit Burkus ▷ 30:39 We think it’s so critical that you’re measuring all of the campaigns that you have, understanding the different tactics that are being used. So when your client comes to you and they say, oh, should I be using branded or unbranded or what type of tactic works well in this disease state that you have that repository that you can draw from and then obviously alignment on mmm best practice practices, no more garbage in, garbage out. We are going to be aligning on standard metrics that we can use early to measure campaign success and then ultimately in the mix modeling when it comes to budget decisions. And then another is data and taxonomy standardization. So you might have noticed at some point up here that we’ve got channels and tactics and sub channels and things that we’re using interchangeably.
Kit Burkus ▷ 31:27 Right Now. And so that adds to some of the confusion that we have around point of care measurement and inconsistency when even our panel of experts calls everything something different. So we need to move in that direction. And then just a commitment from everyone in this room to really move toward those standard metrics and those best practices. We really feel like a rising tide carries all ships.
Kit Burkus ▷ 31:49 And right now, other channels have a seat at the head of the table because they are consistent in what they’re doing. And we want to see point of care move in that direction as well.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 32:00 Thank you so much. We’re going to let our audience members, if you have a question, just raise your hand. We’ve got mic runners, so we can take questions for just shy of about 10 minutes.
Joy Joseph ▷ 32:14 Oh, on the corner there. All the way through, right?
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 32:16 There we go. Brennan Smite, give this man a mic.
Kit Burkus ▷ 32:20 I was going to say we’re going to start calling on people we don’t have questions.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 32:24 First off, great job, everyone. Thank you. Obviously, super important, super relevant question I have is I’m going to presuppose that these very smart people in the room are often in a room with people who have a predisposition or a bias towards certain media mixes. And what advice would you give us or what counsel would you give us on how you manage media mixed modeling as the blind lady of justice, so to speak, in terms of how you accomplish what’s in the best interest of doing that? Because I imagine that that’s not uncharted territory for you.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 33:06 Correct. So I can take that one. And I would say my best recommendation is to help educate, present to your internal analytics teams your test and control analyses from your unbiased third parties and share the difficulty and bring in your measurement partners or bring in your vendors to give the example I gave about waiting room one to one. And it really is interesting to watch their eyes open. A lot of times, those analytics folks, they’re fantastic at what they do, but they just don’t understand the point of care channel.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 33:36 So help educate. That would be my best guidance. And lean on your partners to help you with that.
Joy Joseph ▷ 33:40 Just to double down on that, the one thing that I would recommend is ask if your campaign should even be in the mmm. And this is one of the findings that we did in this work we did two years back was that some really small campaigns were being included and broken out individually in the campaign.
Joy Joseph ▷ 33:58 So should your 500 NPI campaign be included in there? Probably not, because MM is not going to be able to sensitive enough to be able to read that. So I think that’s one of the first question is that set the expectations. Ask the partner what are their sensitivity thresholds for measuring? Are there minimum levels of execution that’s needed in there to set kind of the expectations to be a little bit more realistic?
Joy Joseph ▷ 34:23 Hopefully that answers what you’re looking for.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 34:26 And then I think we have an anonymous question or an audience question question. I’m going to read. How do major target list refreshes Large percentage of inventory changing during the middle of a point of care campaign impact measurement. Should there be an industry standard limiting inventory changes to a certain percentage?
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 34:46 Thank you. By the way.
Kit Burkus ▷ 34:47 Yeah, I was going to say in terms of test and control that shouldn’t be a huge change necessarily unless you have a lot of people who are experiencing and you don’t have an unexposed group that you’re using for test and control. So I think test and control wise we’re good. I think mixed modeling.
Kit Burkus ▷ 35:06 We said we need a variation. Joy. I don’t know if it’s too much variation to basically swap everything in the middle of a campaign or not.
Joy Joseph ▷ 35:14 Yeah, I usually have like a one third rule which basically if more than a third of your inventory changes over, that’s going to substantially change the traditional trajectory of the analysis. What do I mean by that?
Joy Joseph ▷ 35:27 Is when inventory changes your pre flight you’re going in with some assumptions on what the campaign’s doing and where your performance yardstick is going to land. And then midway, if midway you’re changing more than a third of that, that’s going to dramatically shift some of the early assumptions that influence the strategy of the campaign. So now you have this binary two headed kind of of execution that you’re doing. They should be two distinct measurement at that point of time. And that 1/3 is a little bit arbitrary.
Joy Joseph ▷ 35:59 But I noticed that it usually works. If more than a third changes, it’s going to change the findings of the analysis.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 36:05 Okay, I’m going to just look we have some other audience questions that came through the channel. Any other mic runners or I’ll read another one from here. What are measurement partners like QVA and Cross6 doing to ensure point of care measurement approaches stay consistent regardless of which vendor is used to measure individual campaigns and then multi channel analyses.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 36:28 Do you want to say?
Kit Burkus ▷ 36:29 I was going to say that that’s a tricky question. You’re never going to get the exact same answer between IQVIA and CrossX. I think we’ll agree on that because it’s slightly different data sets that are going into that and when you have different underlying data, you’re never going to get the exact same answer. But I mean in terms of consistency across brands within a campaign, both companies can take all of the exposure data where you would never reveal another vendor’s footprint and take that and have a unified single approach to how you measure the entire channel and then break out vendors and tactics and sub channels within that.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 37:10 I would push and actually say there’s a world where we can get closer. Certainly when it starts with the people in this room. Right. If we had this type of kickoff call that we talked about where internal analytics teams, agency partners, vendors are all aligned on in a test control, what are the kind of attributes that we want to control on. There’s no reason we couldn’t independently of each other, working with analytics team at the pharma brand teams, media coes, we couldn’t just sell up the same sort of analyses.
Joshua Bazile ▷ 37:37 Certainly yes, kit like different data sets, but more or less the attributes are going to be consistent between the two. So I think that’s something that we’ll need your help in doing. And certainly to your point as well, when we think about kind of cross partner measurement, we can also sort of do that same overlap in the same way and also pull in the other channels that we’re measuring as well. Not just POC in a silo, but POC with television and digital. And how does that kind of all come together too?
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 38:04 Thank you. And then another question. What is the most efficient way to gather patient volume for marketing mix model?
Joy Joseph ▷ 38:12 I can take that one. So there’s pretty much any source.
Joy Joseph ▷ 38:16 We obviously do it Shameless blood. But any source for script data, like where or where you’re tracking patient activity by offices, you should be able to compute that metric. So basically any of your data vendors should be able to do it. Or we could do it.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 38:35 Great.
Joy Joseph ▷ 38:36 I love this last one.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 38:37 I know the last one. How can we help standardize such a fragmented channel?
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 38:45 I don’t know. I’ll volunteer myself. I think it starts with us in this room and a commitment to do so. But I’m going to let our panelists answer.
Sarah Bast ▷ 38:52 I was just going to add that I think, you know, Nicole has done an amazing job of bringing more members into POCMA and really making sure that we are kind of having those conversations with the in office partners, with the pharmacy partners, with the EHR partners.
Sarah Bast ▷ 39:13 I don’t want to leave anyone out here, but I think she’s done a great job. And now I do think that stage standardization committee they have a lot on their agenda to do. So I think that is something that. Please have people volunteer at your companies to participate in these committees. And we need people to be vocal and actually participating, not a silent partner.
Sarah Bast ▷ 39:40 That’s how we’re going to get there. That’s how other channels have gotten there. That’s how the IAB has done things. So please, please help Nicole and her.
Kit Burkus ▷ 39:50 Committees, help Sarah get more POC budget.
Meghan Sarli ▷ 39:53 Yeah.
Joanne Biscardi ▷ 39:55 Thank you. Thank you. And thank you so much to our panelists this morning. Great to start the day with you guys here, and thank you for everyone’s questions and attention.
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